To the Vic the other night for their Xmas dinner. VC aka She Who Is Blessed aka The Champ had booked a table and invited DY, JQ, Bad Beat, John Duthie, Ashley Alterman, Panni and myself to eat a rather dubious selection of Christmas fare (in other words, I ordered wrong). Willy Tann joined us halfway through. To be included in this motley crew was an honour and looking around I thought to myself that I was glad we were just eating and bullshitting rather than playing poker; I fancy I would have been the "star" (unless of course JQ went behind - just kidding!).
The funny thing about the Vic is how many detractors it has, including all the above regulars. The players above are sort of allowed to gripe about the gaff because they do go there all the time and keep the games going etc, but I've noticed most people who slag it off usually do so because they can't win there. Instead of saying, "Man, that 100 Hold'Em game at the Vic is tough sometimes, there's a lot more to this poker lark than I realised", they say things like, "The place is just full of grumpy old men and some of the players were rude to me", or, "The staff were useless, I had to wait ages for a seat". The truth is that it does get annoying when you have to tell some cretin for the 25th time that night that it's up to them, or to put their blind in, or to turn their hand over, or to not pass out of turn - that's probably why the howwible man was nasty to diddums; they don't suffer fools gladly at the Vic (unless of course they're a soooooperstar) and I don't blame them.
Anyway, this is all a pre-amble to my series of descriptions of Vic characters (at least two readers asked me to do it, and that's enough for me) that I have had the pleasure of playing with over the years. First of all, these *ahem* portraits are in no way meant to be critical or negative - they are affectionate reminiscences and pretty much everybody I plan on writing about I like. Even though I hardly go to the Vic at the moment I'm sure I'll go back to being a more regular player there in the future so I'm not trying to offend anyone or make enemies. I'm apologising now in case anybody gets pissed off with me. Having said all that I must admit that what has inspired me to blog about Vic players was Stewart Reuben's most recent book (24/7 or something like that) which was fantastically rude about loads of people that he has played with through the years. I'll do about one a week until I get bored (or filled in), or you get bored (already this blog is just one long nostalgia trip I must admit) and to start us off I'm going to talk about one of my favourite ever players:
Francis Rohan
Basically, Francis is an absolute legend. His catchphrase, “You’ll be alright”, has been appropriated by many other players (Derek Kelly of the Gutshot has a column with the title You'll Be Alright and sometimes I wonder whether, a) he knows what it means, and, b) that it originates from Francis).
Francis is one of those classic poker players who truly believes he is the best player in the world EVER. He really does think every one else is an inferior player compared to him, hence his nickname Simply (as in the Tina Turner song Simply The Best). I’ll never forget him saying to me that he would “like to be locked up with Mark Mead with money” ! Francis always sits with small money and plays virtually every hand, punctuating every witticism with his trademark “Eh”. A most affable person and very hard to dislike. Always good company at the table as well as a boost to any game, his colourful quips told in his distinctive northern accent always leave his audience in fits of laughter. He once ended some anecdote with the immortal words, “one day I’ll be sitting on a great big fat Dundee!”.
Francis often goes MIA for months at a time; when you ask him where he’s been he usually replies that he’s been playing in the provinces at places like Southampton, “nicking twos and threes”. Francis is also very fond of a drink and can become quite belligerent when he’s had a skinful. He once had a real go at me when he thought I had pulled a stroke on him. I protested my (genuine) innocence and Michael Arnold came to my defence. Francis then went off on one at Michael ; I felt Simply was out of order but now realised he was very drunk so kept my mouth shut, as did Michael. I didn’t see him for about a week or so and when I did I thought I’d apologise to him (even though I had done nothing wrong) as a way of making peace and letting him know I held no grudge. He immediately apologised and all was forgotten.
I am told that Francis once had a great run at a festival (one before my time) which is possibly where he got his belief that he is the greatest poker player on the planet. Of course the next festival that rolled around he was telling everyone how much he was going to win etc and then duly did his cobblers. He is also renowned for his nipping skills though I truly believe he has good intentions. I once saw him approach Mickey Finn and try to assure him that he would soon be floating in readies and thus able to repay the famous American player. Finn just smiled and told him to forget it - Finn’s world weary smile spoke volumes. Not only how many times he had heard this sort of stuff from Francis, but also of the affection he had for him. Francis may well still have a long queue of bogeys (creditors), I don’t know. I do know that Adrian Holmes has long given up on the money that Francis owes him.
Tuesday, December 26, 2006
Thursday, December 14, 2006
books
I recently bought a copy of The Mathematics of Poker by Bill Chen and Jerrod Ankenman which is definitely going to be the poker book for a while, The new Harrington on Hold'em if you like. It looks like a really good book, but I know most of it is going to go straight over my head, so I'm sort of wondering why I got it. Anyway, it got me thinking about which poker books I enjoyed the most and gleaned some sort of knowledge out of.
1. Shut Up and Deal by Jesse May
This for me is not just the best poker novel, but easily the best book about poker EVER. This is the book that turned me into a winning player, not Super System or Sklansky or all those sorts of strategy books, but this, a rambling narrative about a young pro trying not to go on tilt. Essentially, it took the mystique out of poker for me, made me realise that their isn't some sort of secret key that unlocks some secret door which leads to being a winner. The descriptions of Foxwoods and Atlantic City so mirrored the Vic it was uncanny - I suddenly saw all the draks and the hustlers and the rocks through new eyes; my naivety and green-ness were finally stripped away.
I bought a copy of it in Vegas when it came out and ended up sitting next to Jesse in the media tournament at the WSOP ('98 I think). He duly signed my copy for me and we have been friendly ever since. I think I have read this novel about seven or eight times - when I first bought it I devoured it, reading it twice in a row. It is a perfect evocation of cardroom life, really capturing what it's like to go to a casino poker room every day. All the various characters that inhabit that type of environment are portrayed with great clarity and empathy. I suspect readers that have taken up the game in the last couple of years wouldn't "get" this book - it was written just before the internet and TV boom. Mind you, several people I know didn't seem to get it at the time either. David Young and the late David Spanier spring to mind, "It hasn't got much of a story has it?", they both moaned. But that's the whole point; poker, like life, is just one long meandering road. When you spend months, actually make that years, just playing poker, nothing really happens apart from pissing your life away and Jesse has written a crystal clear reflection of that.
2. King of a Small World by Rick Bennet
This is also a novel and for those of you who prefer a more traditional narrative this may be more up your street than Shut Up and Deal. It is well written and is mostly set in the private games (spielers rather than home games) of Washington D.C. As an indication of how small the poker scene used to be (even in America) both this and Jesse's book are inspired by the same player (and dedicated to him), one Cong Do.
3. One of a Kind: The Rise and Fall of Stuey "The Kid" Ungar by Nolan Dalla and Peter Alson
I chose this because apart from being a well researched biography with plenty of anecdotes concerning Stuey's sick degenerate gambling and drug use I found Ungar's story really moving. I never knew how much pain he suffered from in his life (which explains his prediliction for illicit substances - in fact, I'm surprised he never became a heroin addict) and all of this is chronicled in an unsentimental and fair manner. I wonder how Stuey's style of play would fair these days against all these twenty-somethings who are basically playing like he used to. He was a fascinating character from a time when the game had many characters; unfortunately it seems like the more poker grows the less interesting people there are who play it.
4. The Biggest Game in Town by Al Alvarez
Sort of the grandaddy of poker books. Another one that I have read several times. With his poetic and literary credentials it's no surprise that Al basically mythologised the early poker scene at the 'Shoe. And why not? Most of the faces that feature are legends and icons of the game (see the last sentence in the paragraph above) and at the time poker was very much a secret little subculture that deserved to be documented. Needless to say Biggest Game is very well written.
5. Fast Company by Jon Bradshaw
Like Alvarez, Bradshaw is a very good writer and this book is a bunch of profiles of master gamblers and hustlers. Poker is represented by pieces on Puggy Pearson and Johnny Moss. Other profiles include legends such as Titanic Thompson and Minnesota Fats. Simultaneously debunking and romanticising these larger than life characters Bradshaw comes very close to understanding what it takes to be a winner.
As you can see, it's these sort of anecdotal books that I find more interesting and illuminating, rather than the sort of advanced manuals that most of us need to read to improve our game. I even prefer According to Doyle over Super System, now that I think about it. The truth is when I read all those Sklansky type books I wasn't ready for many of the concepts in them. Ironically, now that I know a lot more about the game I would get a lot more out of those sorts of books, but because I do know more I can't face ploughing through them anymore. I learnt to play live and I still prefer that. I have always enjoyed the interaction with all the various weirdos and chancers one meets at the poker table -all the bickering and moaning and gallows humour enhances the game for me. In short, it's the people that make the game and I guess that's why I liked the books I listed above.
Speaking of poker players, I'm thinking of writing a few descriptions of the various duckers and divers I have played with at the Vic over the years. Would any of my small handful of readers be interested in that?
1. Shut Up and Deal by Jesse May
This for me is not just the best poker novel, but easily the best book about poker EVER. This is the book that turned me into a winning player, not Super System or Sklansky or all those sorts of strategy books, but this, a rambling narrative about a young pro trying not to go on tilt. Essentially, it took the mystique out of poker for me, made me realise that their isn't some sort of secret key that unlocks some secret door which leads to being a winner. The descriptions of Foxwoods and Atlantic City so mirrored the Vic it was uncanny - I suddenly saw all the draks and the hustlers and the rocks through new eyes; my naivety and green-ness were finally stripped away.
I bought a copy of it in Vegas when it came out and ended up sitting next to Jesse in the media tournament at the WSOP ('98 I think). He duly signed my copy for me and we have been friendly ever since. I think I have read this novel about seven or eight times - when I first bought it I devoured it, reading it twice in a row. It is a perfect evocation of cardroom life, really capturing what it's like to go to a casino poker room every day. All the various characters that inhabit that type of environment are portrayed with great clarity and empathy. I suspect readers that have taken up the game in the last couple of years wouldn't "get" this book - it was written just before the internet and TV boom. Mind you, several people I know didn't seem to get it at the time either. David Young and the late David Spanier spring to mind, "It hasn't got much of a story has it?", they both moaned. But that's the whole point; poker, like life, is just one long meandering road. When you spend months, actually make that years, just playing poker, nothing really happens apart from pissing your life away and Jesse has written a crystal clear reflection of that.
2. King of a Small World by Rick Bennet
This is also a novel and for those of you who prefer a more traditional narrative this may be more up your street than Shut Up and Deal. It is well written and is mostly set in the private games (spielers rather than home games) of Washington D.C. As an indication of how small the poker scene used to be (even in America) both this and Jesse's book are inspired by the same player (and dedicated to him), one Cong Do.
3. One of a Kind: The Rise and Fall of Stuey "The Kid" Ungar by Nolan Dalla and Peter Alson
I chose this because apart from being a well researched biography with plenty of anecdotes concerning Stuey's sick degenerate gambling and drug use I found Ungar's story really moving. I never knew how much pain he suffered from in his life (which explains his prediliction for illicit substances - in fact, I'm surprised he never became a heroin addict) and all of this is chronicled in an unsentimental and fair manner. I wonder how Stuey's style of play would fair these days against all these twenty-somethings who are basically playing like he used to. He was a fascinating character from a time when the game had many characters; unfortunately it seems like the more poker grows the less interesting people there are who play it.
4. The Biggest Game in Town by Al Alvarez
Sort of the grandaddy of poker books. Another one that I have read several times. With his poetic and literary credentials it's no surprise that Al basically mythologised the early poker scene at the 'Shoe. And why not? Most of the faces that feature are legends and icons of the game (see the last sentence in the paragraph above) and at the time poker was very much a secret little subculture that deserved to be documented. Needless to say Biggest Game is very well written.
5. Fast Company by Jon Bradshaw
Like Alvarez, Bradshaw is a very good writer and this book is a bunch of profiles of master gamblers and hustlers. Poker is represented by pieces on Puggy Pearson and Johnny Moss. Other profiles include legends such as Titanic Thompson and Minnesota Fats. Simultaneously debunking and romanticising these larger than life characters Bradshaw comes very close to understanding what it takes to be a winner.
As you can see, it's these sort of anecdotal books that I find more interesting and illuminating, rather than the sort of advanced manuals that most of us need to read to improve our game. I even prefer According to Doyle over Super System, now that I think about it. The truth is when I read all those Sklansky type books I wasn't ready for many of the concepts in them. Ironically, now that I know a lot more about the game I would get a lot more out of those sorts of books, but because I do know more I can't face ploughing through them anymore. I learnt to play live and I still prefer that. I have always enjoyed the interaction with all the various weirdos and chancers one meets at the poker table -all the bickering and moaning and gallows humour enhances the game for me. In short, it's the people that make the game and I guess that's why I liked the books I listed above.
Speaking of poker players, I'm thinking of writing a few descriptions of the various duckers and divers I have played with at the Vic over the years. Would any of my small handful of readers be interested in that?
Monday, December 4, 2006
Holdem 100
To the Holdem 100 yesterday held at the Gutshot where I managed to treble up three times by going all-in blind, but still never managed to hold on to any chips. Hold on, I hear you say, The Sweep going all-in blind!!??!! What the fuck is going on?!?!? Well it was a tournament in aid of the Royal Marsden Cancer Hospital so I thought I'd piss about a bit. This is an annual event created and run by my very old friend Conrad Brunner (now a top marketing guy at PokerStars btw). It's always good fun and it's interesting to note that at the first one held at Porchester Hall (10 years ago) most of the players had never played poker before, let alone Texas Hold'em. I remember having to be a table captain and tell everybody when it was their turn, how much the bet was, sort out the side pots etc etc. Now everyone knows what a flop is and that the blinds are going up in two minutes and they're all asking if there are add-ons etc. What a difference ten years makes, eh? To find out more check out http://www.holdem100.com/
Anyway, a sort of interesting hand came up between the eventual winner, Wilson Chan, and the eventual third place finisher, Murray Sharp. Wilson was obviously an experienced tournament player and probably a regular at the Gutshot. Murray is a complete nutter who I have played with before in a couple of private games.
Murray comes to the table with around 14,000 chips. Wilson has about 7,000. We're ten handed and the blinds are 100/200, so still early doors-ish, as they say. Everybody folds around to Murray who is in the small blind. He makes it 600 to go. Wilson, in the big blind, gives it a bit of a dwell and then goes all-in. In the modern poker vernacular, Murray insta-calls. Murray has A5 offsuit and Wilson has 93 offsuit. A nine comes on the river giving Wilson the pot. Ok, so no big deal, it was a blinds skirmish - Wilson got caught making a move and then got lucky. What was interesting was hearing Murray grumble about the hand for a while, muttering about Wilson's luck and so on. I was struck by how quickly Murray called with A5, which let's face it, isn't exactly a powerhouse. However, given that we now know Wilson's hand, it was a great call. In fact, given that we know Murray's hand I think Wilson made a great move too( I certainly would've folded A5 to a re-raise, probably a flaw in my tournament game...). Anyway, I guess I'm trying to say that there's just loads of marginal tournament situations and that I'm still bemused when I hear people saying things like, "If I win that hand I'll be chip leader and then I'd make the final....etc" or, "How can that cunt call?" or, "Did you see what that idiot raised with?".
Anyway, a sort of interesting hand came up between the eventual winner, Wilson Chan, and the eventual third place finisher, Murray Sharp. Wilson was obviously an experienced tournament player and probably a regular at the Gutshot. Murray is a complete nutter who I have played with before in a couple of private games.
Murray comes to the table with around 14,000 chips. Wilson has about 7,000. We're ten handed and the blinds are 100/200, so still early doors-ish, as they say. Everybody folds around to Murray who is in the small blind. He makes it 600 to go. Wilson, in the big blind, gives it a bit of a dwell and then goes all-in. In the modern poker vernacular, Murray insta-calls. Murray has A5 offsuit and Wilson has 93 offsuit. A nine comes on the river giving Wilson the pot. Ok, so no big deal, it was a blinds skirmish - Wilson got caught making a move and then got lucky. What was interesting was hearing Murray grumble about the hand for a while, muttering about Wilson's luck and so on. I was struck by how quickly Murray called with A5, which let's face it, isn't exactly a powerhouse. However, given that we now know Wilson's hand, it was a great call. In fact, given that we know Murray's hand I think Wilson made a great move too( I certainly would've folded A5 to a re-raise, probably a flaw in my tournament game...). Anyway, I guess I'm trying to say that there's just loads of marginal tournament situations and that I'm still bemused when I hear people saying things like, "If I win that hand I'll be chip leader and then I'd make the final....etc" or, "How can that cunt call?" or, "Did you see what that idiot raised with?".
Friday, December 1, 2006
Playing With The Suicide King
To continue the theme started on my first post and inspired by Warren Wooldridge’s piece on pokerverdict.com about playing with world class American pros at past WSOP events I thought I would add my paltry reminiscences. I have been going to the WSOP since 1996 (the year Huck Seed won the main event) although unlike Warren I have only ever played in three bracelet events. Why go? I hear you ask. Well, basically I used to go for the cash games and general pissing about (aka playing dice or pai gow) with various other layabouts, liggers and chancers (aka poker pros). Before the internet/ WPT/ Moneymaker revolution (choose which you think is applicable) the WSOP was a great laugh. The ease of flitting between the Nugget and the ‘Shoe fostered a real camaraderie between the European players. There was always somebody at the Horseshoe bar to share a poker story or two with.
Over the years I have played with many faces in both low limit and mid limit games. I’ll never forget looking over and seeing Surinder Sunar playing in a $1 - $5 stud game! This was in 2004 as well, not way back in the mists of time; he must have wanted to practice stud with weak players or something – no way could he have been potless. I remember playing with O’Neil Longson in a $1/$3 blinds no limit hold’em game when the last time I had seen him was the previous year when he was playing $50/$100 blinds. All these hands and players and games just jumble into a blur, but one of the most memorable is sitting down to play the $1,500 Razz event in 2005. I looked around the table and felt good, most of the other players looked like your typical poker desperadoes. The WSOP had been running for well over a month so by now most people were skint, and whereas a few weeks earlier they would never have played a non hold’em event the Razz tourney looked like maybe a good way to get out of it. My optimism was short lived though as who should fill the last seat but Ted Forrest, aka the Suicide King or Professor Backwards himself. Great, not only is the guy considered one of the best players in the world, but any type of stud game is his speciality. I have been around poker a fairly long time and usually my first reaction on seeing a good player at the same table is one of disgust (as you can tell from the last sentence), but I must admit this time I actually felt a little excited at the thought of playing with a bona fide legend.
Ted surprised me by limping into lots of pots, even when he had the lowest showing door card. I suspect he felt very confident of his play on the later streets and it was also his way of keeping the pots small until he wanted to make it bigger (remember, this was a limit tournament; rammin’ and jammin’ on 3rd and 4th street usually means no-one is folding by the last card). I tussled in a couple of pots with him, but nothing memorable although I do remember that I was fortunate enough to hold good cards over him and was never faced with a tricky decision against him.
What was notable was the amount of players who came up to Ted whispering asides to him and weighing in. Occasionally Ted would dip into his pocket and pull out a massive wad of hundreds and peel a few off and hand them over to whichever hapless railbird was talking to him. I later told Neil Channing about this and he remarked, “Yeah, he runs this town”. Interestingly, one of these players was former main event winner Huck Seed. He came over several times to report on his and others’ progress in the tournament. I had the feeling that Ted was Huck’s backer, but this is purely speculative.
I played the tournament quite well, I think, apart from one hand which I related to my mate Ben Battle who had bought a piece of me. “I was the bring in with a K and this guy raised in late position after about 5 players folded around to him. I had A 2 in the hole so I called. I then caught good and he paired, so I bet and he called. Then I paired my deuce and he caught good. I now checked and he bet and for some inexplicable reason I called. Now on
In the end, Ted and I got knocked out at exactly the same time in a weird three way coup. I had the best hand, but of course got done over. It turned out that Ted and I had exactly the same amount of chips too, so although I didn’t do very well in the tournament I can at least say my play was equal to that of one of the best players in the game. Or something like that……
Friday, November 24, 2006
Pot limit Hold'em with Greg Raymer
The following piece was written as a trip report to the news group rec gambling poker way back in January 2002. Basically I played cash with a future WSOP champ… I remember seeing him in the final of the 2004 WSOP and thinking, “Hold on, isn’t that the Ice Cream I played pot limit Hold’em with in that blinding cash game at Foxwoods a couple of years ago??!!?”. As you can see from the report I actually thought he wasn’t a bad player at all, and now that I think about it, I realise that if that same game were to happen now with the extra knowledge about the game that I have now, I would appreciate that he was a very strong player, instead of just thinking he was loose-aggressive. Fossilman actually replied to me and reading it back it’s nice to see him tell me, “ I liked your game, and know that in the long run, you'd make a clear profit against the line-up that night.” It's pretty long but I hope you enjoy it.
Original post on r.g.p
As a longtime lurker of this ng i thought i'd post a trip report, as those are the posts i enjoy reading the most. I usually play poker in the uk, at the vic or regency(aka the stakis) in London, and have been playing seriously(as in having read a few books, playing in public cardrooms etc etc) for around 7 years. I have many relatives who live in Connecticut and usually visit that part of the states once a year, making sure that Foxwoods is on the itinerary. In fact, I remember going there not long after it had opened, and being blown away by the action. It was the first public cardroom I had been to in the states, and it gave me the impression that all poker rooms were like that. There must have been at least a hundred games going, with many of them being at high limits(75/150 and higher). Cut to a couple of years later and, of course, all the suckers' money was gone and only about 10-15 games going, all seemingly filled with grumpy locals and rocks. Anyway, it still seems a nice place to play and I usually lose because I cannot get my head
around limit poker. How everyone in America can play this structure I do not know....
However, I won't moan about that, because the night in question, maybe a tuesday about two weeks ago, I find myself walking into Foxwoods poker room, around 9pm, and much to my surprise and delight, there's a list for a pot-limit hold'em game. I put my name on it, and, after being told "it might start, who knows?", a bunch of other games, and look around the room. I see a few locals whose faces I remember from past visits and am thinking how all cardrooms are filled with the same kinds of characters("pros" with threadbare clothes trying to flirt with the waitresses, young college-type guys taking the game super-seriously, seniors making each other miserable, locals trying to dodge who they owe money to etc), when they call my name for a brand new 5/10 Omaha8 game. Of course, the line-up consists of a bunch of old boys who won't play unless it's at least 7-handed, and consequently the game takes about 15 minutes to start. We play about two hands when suddenly I hear my name being called for the plh game. Wow! I can't believe it, I'm going to play pot-limit in an american card room! And it's not during a tournament week, just your typical average day.
Onto the game;10-handed pot-limit hold'em, buy-in $100, blinds 5-5 off the button, $5 from each player every half hour(a reasonable rake?). From now on, forgive me if the details are a little sketchy, I'll do my best to remember things, but it was about two weeks ago. At the beginning the line-up was: seat 1, young guy(YG); seat 2, a rather, ahem...how can i put this?, portly, rich guy(PRG), he clearly had pot-limit experience(and that doesn't necessarily mean he was a good player), which was good because he kept the game going and was most affable, and sat down with at least 10k, maybe more; seat 3, another young guy with a baseball hat(BH), he didn't seem too bad a player; seat 4, a local who was a total rock(Rock); seat 5, another local, who had kind of a loud voice(I don't mean this in a bad way, he seemed like a nice guy, I just can't think of another way to describe him, I'll call him Loudmouth); seat 6, a middle-aged guy called Harold, he was obviously not a very good player, and I suspect, one of the reasons the game was going(I'm not going to refer to him as an idiot-I always find it slightly offensive the way people on this forum call bad players derogatory names. Just because they don't appear to be good at the game doesn't make them an idiot or a bad person); seat 7, a japanese(?) guy(JG); seat 8, another rock(Rock2); seat 9, me; seat 10, another local, who I think was called Spiro(? hope I got that right). Incidentally, the whole game was played in a friendly spirit, although there was often confusion as to what amounts people could raise. On the whole the PRG told players what to do, as most of the dealers, with the exception of one or two, didn't really have a clue. In fact, at one point there was about a five minute delay when a player and the dealer could not get it right(for some reason, neither of them could work out that all you have to do is call first, and then count the pot, and then raise that amount-simple really).
I sat down with $600, apart from the aforementioned PRG everbody else had about $200 to $400 in front of them. Apart from Spiro and PRG, I sensed everybody was a little nervous about playing pot-limit, especially the japanese guy. I noticed right away that PRG was playing many hands, straddling and sticking little raises of $10 or $5 to build the pot up, and encouraging everyone to gambool and all that crap. He was obviously looking to gamble with a weird hand, maybe sending someone with aces or kings broke. This is what I love about pl-you can play rubbish like K10 off, or 22, UTG, if you want, because of the implied odds etc. Mind you, you better be prepared to dump it if things start to look bad. I'm not saying this is correct play or anything, just that if you have a good sense of where you're at and what kind of players you're dealing with, you can be more flexible with your starters at pot-limit(IMHO). Harold was also playing many hands. I won a small pot early on (can't remember anything about it at all) and then looked down to see...AA. Raise! I make it $25 to play. PRG and BH, the blinds, both call, and so does Harold. The flop comes something like 4, 9, A, rainbow. Basically a pretty great flop for a set of aces. They all check to me and like an idiot I bet $75. Fold, fold, fold. What the hell was I thinking?? Maybe I thought PRG was going to take me on or something, or Harold would call, but I guess the blood just rushed to my head. Not one of my greater plays...
About a round later in pretty much the same late position I find AK suited(hearts). I raise, making it 15 to play, and PRG calls and raises another 40. I think about re-raising, thinking i've probably got the best hand, but decide that I don't want to go broke on A high, so I just call. The flop comes Q x x, two hearts. Not too bad. PRG now bets 75. Hmmm...I don't think he's got a super-strong hand, so I decide to play mine aggressively(after all, I have got 15 outs) and call 75 and raise the pot, 270. He gives it the dwell and then decides to put me all-in, about 250 more. I call, and somebody says, "on their backs", to which I reply, "It's not a tournament", but PRG turned his hand over to show AQ. So I was kind of right, he wasn't holding a monster, but I was down to 12 outs. OOPs, make that 9 ‘cos another Q just fell on the turn. I'm funking for a heart, c'mon baby, but of course it's some useless rag club on the river(it's always a club, ain't it?). Oh well, back to the drawing board, so I pull up a grand.
After about half an hour Rock2, on my immiediate right, made a nice play. He had become fairly short-stacked calling a couple of raises to see flops and then having to fold when he hadn't hit. He got up and left. Sure, it was a good game, but he wasn't hitting cards, so why sit around going on tilt? there's always another game and another day. I wish I could cut my losses and just walk away like this more often.
In his place another local sat down. This guy had been watching the game almost from the beginning and was obviously some sort of "pro". He sat with $1000. Very first hand he gets, he raises. I fold, but a couple of others call, including Harold. Flop is something like x 9 10. Harold checks and the pro bets the pot(about 60). Other player folds and Harold calls. Turn is an 8. Harold checks and the pro bets 180. Harold now check-raises all-in about 700 in total. The pro now thinks for awhile and finally calls. Harold, of course, has JQ for the nuts and the pro disgustedly flicks KK in the muck( did you guess the hands right?). Like I said, this pro had been watching the game, and also seemed to know Harold, who, as I had also observed, was not that good a player. How this pro could call a check-raise from a not very sophisticated player I'll never know. Yes, yes I know it's all much easier when you're not in the hand, but you gotta think you're beat when the board is showing a straight and many 2-pair type possibilities(by that, I mean Harold could easily have played 9 10, 8 9, even 10 8 suited as his starting hands) and all you got is one pair, don't ya? The pro later turned round to some railbird and whispered something about "anyone else and I fold, but against him....", so he may well have had good reason to call, I could be judging him a little harshly.
Harold's weak style of play was demonstrated a few hands later when BH in seat 3 bet the pot when a card to make broadway hit the turn(having called a bet on the flop), and Harold, unable to resist with 2 pairs, called. The river was a blank and BH made a large bet again to which Harold made a losing call(BH had the nuts). The point being, I'm pretty sure BH would have folded to a bet if the board had paired.
I then found myself in early position with AJ off and limped in. About 4 or 5 of us saw the flop which consisted of Q K 10, two diamonds. Ok, I got the straight, but I don't like them diamonds.
Harold checks and JG bets, I call and raise the pot. Harold smooth calls...ok, he must have diamonds, and JG thinks a little bit and folds. Turn is an offsuit Jack, Harold checks and I bet the pot. He now check-raises me! Great, he's not only just made the top straight as well, but he's freerolling with the flush draw against me. Marvellous. I call and pray for a blank, which it is. Phew. Turns out Harold only had the bare ace of diamonds and while we chop the pot up he talks about having a draw to the royal flush(....?).
Next hand I decide to play is the 7 5 of spades in mid-position. I raise, for the sake of varying my play and hope I hit some kind of mystery(on the whole I'm a fairly tight player, and many in London think of me as absolute granite, but I like to mix it up a little-otherwise you never get paid off when you hit your flop, which has been a problem for me in the past). Several players call. Flop comes...all spades(sorry, can't remember the ranks). I bet the pot and Spiro, to my immiediate left, thinks for a bit and flat calls. Uh-oh, I've found him a tricky player to read, and my perception of him is that he knows what he's doing-is he setting a trap for me and slowplaying the nut flush? It's head's up now and 4th street is a blank. Hmmm, what to do? I can't give him a free card, but what if I'm betting into a monster? I decide to check and see what he does, and then make a decision whether I want to continue with the hand. To my delight Spiro also checks. The river card is a blank, and I decide I'm winning and make a questionable value bet of about 150(prob about 3/4 of the pot). I think I decided he had trips and maybe would call, and if he had the nuts he'd let me know, and I could fold, having murdered $150 in cold blood. He pondered awhile and then folded. As the dealer shuffled for the next hand Spiro told me he had the ace of spades. I don't know whether that was true or not, but if a fourth spade had hit the flop, my cards would have gone straight into the muck(I'm about 95% sure about that).
I guess around two hours had gone by now and new players were entering the game. PRG was actually losing quite a fair amount and had moved to seat 9(my immiediate right) and a new young guy(NYG) had taken his place. NYG raises in 1st position and gets several callers including me with AJ. Flop comes A 3 7, two diamonds, He bets the pot and everyone folds round to me. I think about raising, but I'm worried that I could be outkicked, so I just call(yeah, yeah, I know, if I'm worried I'm beat, why don't I just fold?). Turn card is a Jack-hooray, I got As up-but it's also a diamond. NYG bets the pot, but I don't think he's got a flush, so I flat call, hoping he'll just check it out on the end. The last card is a blank and he checks nervously, so I just turn my 2 pair over, hoping they're good. He turns over two black 3s to go with the one on the flop. Great. So if I had gone with my read on the turn and raised the pot, he may well have folded. My conservative play was not only due to lack of spleen, but also due to the fact that I had never played with this guy before-for all I knew, he had bet on the come, or maybe AK with the K of diamonds. Anyway, I never put him on bottom set. I also lost another pot to this guy, but I can't remember the details of that at all. Basically, I had been slowly crawling my way out of a hole, but since his arrival at the table, I was right back in it.
All was not lost however, because a little later on, I found a pair of 8s in mid to late position. I raise(hell, I didn't come all the way to Foxwoods to limp in!) and my man, NYG calls from out of the blinds. Flop is all undercards with a flush draw (yikes! there might have been a straight there, I can't remember), NYG checks, I bet the pot. He thinks and calls. Turn card is a blank, he checks so I bet the pot again. Now he thinks awhile longer, and then calls. Looks like he
could be on the flush draw, who knows, I fancy I'm winning at the moment. Last card is, aaargh, the flushing card. NYG dwells and dwells. He's thinking of bluffing it, I'm sure, oh wow, I'm gonna have to call a fair sized bet with a lousy pair of 8s, why the hell did I raise it and keep betting like I actually had something good? Knowing my luck he's got trips again....he finally checks, thank God, and I turn my 8s over while he turns over A5off(the 5 matching one on the
flop). Phew, I won a pot.
Another interesting coup occurred when I raised in late position with some rubbish(I can't remember, but it doesn't really matter) and found seat 4, the local who was a complete rock(remember?) and the PRG calling. The flop featured two clubs. They both checked to me, so I thought I'll bet out and take the pot right here. They both called-hmmm, have I got a plan B? I was especially concerned when the Rock called because I had barely seen this fella play a hand; he really was super-duper tight. Anyway the next card comes and it's a club, and that's it, I'm through with this pot. They both check to me, and I look at the Rock and he's just dying for me to bet, it's so obvious it's a joke. Like I said I had given up on this pot so I just checked along. River is nothing special and now the Rock bets 200-I knew he had the nut flush! PRG calls and I fold with the satisfaction of seeing my brilliant read. Rock now turns over a pair of 10s(huh?)
while PRG is the one with the nut flush. So much for my understanding of that situation.
The game had been going on for a while now when up came perhaps the most interesting pot of the night(unfortunately, I was not involved). A little background on the three participants first.
Loudmouth, in seat 5, had for sometime now, been raising before the flop and taking pots down without his cards being seen. Indeed, he was playing well and winning quite a bit(probably had about 3 grand in front of him). PRG, like I said above, was losing quite a lot, maybe stuck about 1000 or so, maybe less. NYG(remember him? he did me with the trip 3s) had started with 300 and, in the space of about an hour, had built it up to about 1500. Anyway, Loudmouth raises UTG, PRG calls, and NYG now re-raises the pot. Loudmouth now raises again and PRG calls while muttering something like, "time to gamble", and NYG calls. I'm pretty sure that's how the pre-flop betting went, but basically they all put-in about 180 each before the flop. I definitely remember the pot was 560, because that was how much loudmouth bet, when he saw J 7 9 in the middle of the table. I know he bet the pot because his favourite expression was, "I'll bet the pot!", being one of those players who always bet the max. Now, the PRG hesitated a little and then said, "make it two thousand", while counting out twenty 100 dollar bills. Now the look on the NYG's face was priceless, the blood literally drained from this kid's face, I'm pretty sure I even heard him say,"oh shit". Whatever the case, he looked pretty freaked out and it dawned on me he had pretty good hand, but maybe not good enough. By now, there was a pretty large crowd gathered around the table watching the action(btw, quite a few times there were many players from other games coming over to watch. This was a good game and there were several big bets and pots generated during the evening. Whilst not being a super-huge game, I think many of the players watching were 10/20 and 15/30 types, and they could imagine themselves in this game. I noticed this same phenomenon at the Bellagio in Vegas once, when some english friends and I set up a plh game, with exactly the same blinds. At the table next to us was Doyle Brunson, Jennifer Harmon, Annie Duke etc playing HUGE, maybe 3000/6000, but everyone in the room was far more interested in our game. I was also bemused by the reluctance of these same players to get involved in our game-I'm sure many a time they've found themselves stuck 500, or even 1k, in a 10/20 or 15/30 game, yet don't want play 400 in a plh game in case they blow it all in one hand.) So, NYG starts to think, and Loudmouth says,"c'mon kid, it's 2 grand to you" (I don't think he was feeling too grand). NYG looks a little peeved(and who can blame him?) and says, "yeah, I know", thinks for a while and folds. Now, it's back on Loudmouth and he goes into a 5 to 10 minute think, which as you all know, is a looong time in poker, before he too throws his hand in. What's interesting about this hand is that NYG later said he had Aces! Surely, he should have raised a third time pre-flop(he definitely had enough money in front of him to make calling difficult for the other two, and if Loudmouth had KKs he would have been in a whole world of trouble) and taken the pot down there and then? I reckon PRG's possible holdings were J 9, J 7(for 2 pr) or 10 8(for the straight). I think he would have laid down a small pocket pair for a large bet before the flop, and if he did have a set he would have slow-played it, but, then again, what the hell do I know? As for Loudmouth's hand, I can't even begin to guess. Like I said, he really had not shown down many hands(in fact, at one point, he folded UTG and accidentally exposed KJ off-this resulted in much ribbing; "what a rock!", "he's just showing off!" etc) and was one of the stronger players in the game.
Well, it got to around 3.30 in the morning and I decided to leave. Unfortunately I was stuck $800, but the game wasn't quite as good as it had been earlier(Harold had quit winners long ago, and PRG left not long after the pot described above) and I was tired. So, yes, I did my absolute bollocks(as we say in England), but it was, despite the result, a very enjoyable session. On a final note, the game went strong for at least 5 hours, with new players coming and going all the time, and looked like it was going to carry on a while longer, so all those fears cardroom managers have about pot limit breaking the live ones too quickly maybe a little exaggerated. Kudos to Foxwoods for spreading the game, and also love the non-smoking.
Fossilman’s reply
(My original text in italics)
As a longtime lurker of this ng i thought i'd post a trip report,
Thanks for de-lurking.
Onto the game;10-handed pot-limit hold'em, buy-in $100, blinds 5-5 off the button, $5 from each player every half hour(a reasonable rake?).... seat 2, a rather, ahem...how can i put this?, portly, rich guy(PRG), he clearly had pot-limit experience(and that doesn't necessarily mean he was a good player), which was good because he kept the game going and was most affable, and sat down with at least 10k, maybe more;
I'm not sure if I've been insulted or compliment. I guess portly is nicer than fat. ;-) That was me, Greg Raymer (FossilMan). And 10K is a bit more than I had, it was only about 5-6K.
seat 5, another local, who had kind of a loud voice(I don't mean this in a bad way, he seemed like a nice guy, I just can't think of another way to describe him, I'll call him Loudmouth);
That's Roby, also called Limit Man (you'll understand why later).
seat 6, a middle-aged guy called Harold, he was obviously not a very good player, and I suspect, one of the reasons the game was going
Not really. I was the one working hard to get the game going, and although I had been working on Harold, I didn't expect him to sit down.
seat 9, me;
Welcome to Foxwoods and Connecticut. Other than Spiro, I had tagged you as the only other capable pot-limit player in the bunch.
seat 10, another local, who I think was called Spiro(? hope I got that right).
Yes, you did. He's a great guy, very friendly, and does very well at NL HE tourneys.
On the whole the PRG told players what to do, as most of the dealers, with the exception of one or two, didn't really have a clue.
I am an attorney, and an ego-maniac, and suffer from "Table-Captain Syndrome".
I noticed right away that PRG was playing many hands, straddling and sticking little raises of $10 or $5 to build the pot up, and encouraging everyone to gambool and all that crap. He was obviously looking to gamble with a weird hand, maybe sending someone with aces or kings broke.
Damn, you saw right through me.
I won a small pot early on (can't remember anything about it at all) and then looked down to see...AA. Raise! I make it $25 to play. PRG and BH, the blinds, both call, and so does Harold. The flop comes something like 4, 9, A, rainbow. Basically a pretty great flop for a
set of aces. They all check to me and like an idiot I bet $75. Fold, fold, fold. What the hell was I thinking?? Maybe I thought PRG was going to take me on or something, or Harold would call, but I guess the blood just rushed to my head. Not one of my greater plays...
Unless I had flopped 2-pair or better, you weren't going to get any action out of me on that flop. ;-)
About a round later in pretty much the same late position I find AK suited(hearts). I raise, making it 15 to play, and PRG calls and raises another 40. I think about re-raising, thinking i've probably got the best hand, but decide that I don't want to go broke on A high, so I just call. The flop comes Q x x, two hearts. Not too bad. PRG now bets 75. Hmmm...I don't think he's got a super-strong hand, so I decide to play mine aggressively(after all, I have got 15 outs) and call 75 and raise the pot, 270. He gives it the dwell and then decides to put me all-in, about 250 more. I call, and somebody says, "on their backs", to which I reply, "It's not a tournament", but PRG turned his hand over to show AQ. So I was kind of right, he wasn't holding a monster, but I was down to 12 outs. OOPs, make that 9 'cos another Q just fell on the turn. I'm funking for a heart, c'mon baby, but of course it's some useless rag club on the river(it's always a club, ain't it?). Oh well, back to the drawing board, so I pull up a grand.
Thanks for the action. If you had reraised the pot preflop, I would've folded.
After about half an hour Rock2, on my immiediate right, made a nice play. He had become fairly short-stacked calling a couple of raises to see flops and then having to fold when he hadn't hit. He got up and left. Sure, it was a good game, but he wasn't hitting cards, so why sit around going on tilt? there's always another game and another day. I wish I could cut my losses and just walk away like this more often.
If you've got money and aren't on tilt, why walk away when the game is good?
In his place another local sat down. This guy had been watching the game almost from the beginning and was obviously some sort of "pro". He sat with $1000. Very first hand he gets, he raises. I fold, but a couple of others call, including Harold. Flop is something like x 9 10. Harold checks and the pro bets the pot(about 60). Other player folds and Harold calls. Turn is an 8. Harold checks and the pro bets 180. Harold now check-raises all-in about 700 in total. The pro now thinks for awhile and finally calls. Harold, of course, has JQ for the nuts and the pro disgustedly flicks KK in the muck( did you guess the hands right?). Like I said, this pro had been watching the game, and also seemed to know Harold, who, as I had also observed, was not that good a player. How this pro could call a check-raise from a not very sophisticated player I'll never know. Yes, yes I know it's all much easier when you're not in the hand, but you gotta think you're beat when the board is showing a straight and many 2-pair type
possibilities(by that, I mean Harold could easily have played 9 10, 8 9, even 10 8 suited as his starting hands) and all you got is one pair, don't ya? The pro later turned round to some railbird and whispered something about "anyone else and I fold, but against him....", so he may well have had good reason to call, I could be judging him a little harshly.
Harold has been known to slow-play and check-raise top pair with a medium kicker. It was correct to call him down here. Of course, no disrespect to you, as you don't know Harold like we know Harold.
Another interesting coup occurred when I raised in late position with some rubbish(I can't remember, but it doesn't really matter) and found seat 4, the local who was a complete rock(remember?) and the PRG calling. The flop featured two clubs. They both checked to me, so I thought I'll bet out and take the pot right here. They both called-hmmm, have I got a plan B? I was especially concerned when the Rock called because I had barely seen this fella play a hand; he really was super-duper tight. Anyway the next card comes and it's a club, and that's it, I'm through with this pot. They both check to me, and I look at the Rock and he's just dying for me to bet, it's so obvious it's a joke. Like I said I had given up on this pot so I just checked along. River is nothing special and now the Rock bets 200-I knew he had the nut flush! PRG calls and I fold with the satisfaction of seeing my brilliant read. Rock now turns over a pair of 10s(huh?) while PRG is the one with the nut flush. So much for my understanding of that situation.
Me too. I put you on a raise, which is why I flat-called. I completely misread some movement you made on the turn.
The game had been going on for a while now when up came perhaps the most interesting pot of the night(unfortunately, I was not involved). A little background on the three participants first. Loudmouth, in seat 5, had for sometime now, been raising before the flop and taking pots down without his cards being seen. Indeed, he was playing well and winning quite a bit(probably had about 3 grand in front of him). PRG, like I said above, was losing quite a lot, maybe stuck about 1000 or so, maybe less. NYG(remember him? he did me with the trip 3s) had started with 300 and, in the space of about an hour, had built it up to about 1500. Anyway, Loudmouth raises UTG, PRG calls, and NYG now re-raises the pot. Loudmouth now raises again and PRG calls while muttering something like, "time to gamble", and NYG calls. I'm pretty sure that's how the pre-flop betting went, but basically they all put-in about 180 each before the flop. I definitely remember the pot was 560, because that was how much loudmouth bet, when he saw J 7 9 in the middle of the table. I know he bet the pot because his favourite expression was, "I'll bet the pot!", being one of those players who always bet the max. Now, the PRG hesitated a little and then said, "make it two thousand", while counting out twenty 100 dollar bills. Now the look on the NYG's face was priceless, the blood literally drained from this kid's face, I'm pretty sure I even heard him say,"oh shit".
Whatever the case, he looked pretty freaked out and it dawned on me he had pretty good hand, but maybe not good enough. By now, there was a pretty large crowd gathered around the table watching the action(btw, quite a few times there were many players from other games coming over to watch. This was a good game and there were several big bets and pots generated during the evening. Whilst not being a super-huge game, I think many of the players watching were 10/20 and 15/30 types, and they could imagine themselves in this game. I noticed this same phenomenon at the Bellagio in Vegas once, when some english friends and I set up a plh game, with exactly the same blinds. At the table next to us was Doyle Brunson, Jennifer Harmon, Annie Duke etc playing HUGE, maybe 3000/6000, but everyone in the room was far more interested in our game. I was also bemused by the reluctance of these same players to get involved in our game-I'm sure many a time they've found themselves stuck 500, or even 1k, in a 10/20 or 15/30 game, yet don't want play 400 in a plh game in case they blow it all in one hand.) So, NYG starts to think, and Loudmouth says,"c'mon kid, it's 2 grand to you" (I don't think he was feeling too grand). NYG looks a little peeved(and who can blame him?) and says, "yeah, I know", thinks for a while and folds. Now, it's back on Loudmouth and he goes into a 5 to 10 minute think, which as you all know, is a looong time in poker, before he too throws his hand in. What's interesting about this hand is that NYG later said he had Aces! Surely, he should have raised a third time pre-flop(he definitely had enough money in front of him to make calling difficult for the other two, and if Loudmouth had KKs he would have been in a whole world of trouble) and taken the pot down there and then? I reckon PRG's possible holdings were J 9, J 7(for 2 pr) or 10 8(for the straight). I think he would have laid down a small pocket pair for a large bet before the flop, and if he did have a set he would have slow-played it, but, then again, what the hell do I know? As for Loudmouth's hand, I can't even begin to guess.
For the whole story on this hand, go to twoplustwo.com. In the PL/NL forum, you'll see two posts by me. In the first one, I tell about the hand and my thinking. In the second one, I tell the post-mortem from a week later, as I saw both of the others that night and we all shared our hands with each other. The posts are titled "Interesting Reason to Semi-Bluff" and "Follow-up: Interesting Reason to Semi-Bluff", or something very similar. Let's just say I was in third place after that flop, knew it, and still won. ;-) It really was a pleasure to play with you. I liked your game, and know that in the long run, you'd make a clear profit against the line-up that night.
As long as I didn't crack your AK too often. ;-)
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Original post on r.g.p
As a longtime lurker of this ng i thought i'd post a trip report, as those are the posts i enjoy reading the most. I usually play poker in the uk, at the vic or regency(aka the stakis) in London, and have been playing seriously(as in having read a few books, playing in public cardrooms etc etc) for around 7 years. I have many relatives who live in Connecticut and usually visit that part of the states once a year, making sure that Foxwoods is on the itinerary. In fact, I remember going there not long after it had opened, and being blown away by the action. It was the first public cardroom I had been to in the states, and it gave me the impression that all poker rooms were like that. There must have been at least a hundred games going, with many of them being at high limits(75/150 and higher). Cut to a couple of years later and, of course, all the suckers' money was gone and only about 10-15 games going, all seemingly filled with grumpy locals and rocks. Anyway, it still seems a nice place to play and I usually lose because I cannot get my head
around limit poker. How everyone in America can play this structure I do not know....
However, I won't moan about that, because the night in question, maybe a tuesday about two weeks ago, I find myself walking into Foxwoods poker room, around 9pm, and much to my surprise and delight, there's a list for a pot-limit hold'em game. I put my name on it, and, after being told "it might start, who knows?", a bunch of other games, and look around the room. I see a few locals whose faces I remember from past visits and am thinking how all cardrooms are filled with the same kinds of characters("pros" with threadbare clothes trying to flirt with the waitresses, young college-type guys taking the game super-seriously, seniors making each other miserable, locals trying to dodge who they owe money to etc), when they call my name for a brand new 5/10 Omaha8 game. Of course, the line-up consists of a bunch of old boys who won't play unless it's at least 7-handed, and consequently the game takes about 15 minutes to start. We play about two hands when suddenly I hear my name being called for the plh game. Wow! I can't believe it, I'm going to play pot-limit in an american card room! And it's not during a tournament week, just your typical average day.
Onto the game;10-handed pot-limit hold'em, buy-in $100, blinds 5-5 off the button, $5 from each player every half hour(a reasonable rake?). From now on, forgive me if the details are a little sketchy, I'll do my best to remember things, but it was about two weeks ago. At the beginning the line-up was: seat 1, young guy(YG); seat 2, a rather, ahem...how can i put this?, portly, rich guy(PRG), he clearly had pot-limit experience(and that doesn't necessarily mean he was a good player), which was good because he kept the game going and was most affable, and sat down with at least 10k, maybe more; seat 3, another young guy with a baseball hat(BH), he didn't seem too bad a player; seat 4, a local who was a total rock(Rock); seat 5, another local, who had kind of a loud voice(I don't mean this in a bad way, he seemed like a nice guy, I just can't think of another way to describe him, I'll call him Loudmouth); seat 6, a middle-aged guy called Harold, he was obviously not a very good player, and I suspect, one of the reasons the game was going(I'm not going to refer to him as an idiot-I always find it slightly offensive the way people on this forum call bad players derogatory names. Just because they don't appear to be good at the game doesn't make them an idiot or a bad person); seat 7, a japanese(?) guy(JG); seat 8, another rock(Rock2); seat 9, me; seat 10, another local, who I think was called Spiro(? hope I got that right). Incidentally, the whole game was played in a friendly spirit, although there was often confusion as to what amounts people could raise. On the whole the PRG told players what to do, as most of the dealers, with the exception of one or two, didn't really have a clue. In fact, at one point there was about a five minute delay when a player and the dealer could not get it right(for some reason, neither of them could work out that all you have to do is call first, and then count the pot, and then raise that amount-simple really).
I sat down with $600, apart from the aforementioned PRG everbody else had about $200 to $400 in front of them. Apart from Spiro and PRG, I sensed everybody was a little nervous about playing pot-limit, especially the japanese guy. I noticed right away that PRG was playing many hands, straddling and sticking little raises of $10 or $5 to build the pot up, and encouraging everyone to gambool and all that crap. He was obviously looking to gamble with a weird hand, maybe sending someone with aces or kings broke. This is what I love about pl-you can play rubbish like K10 off, or 22, UTG, if you want, because of the implied odds etc. Mind you, you better be prepared to dump it if things start to look bad. I'm not saying this is correct play or anything, just that if you have a good sense of where you're at and what kind of players you're dealing with, you can be more flexible with your starters at pot-limit(IMHO). Harold was also playing many hands. I won a small pot early on (can't remember anything about it at all) and then looked down to see...AA. Raise! I make it $25 to play. PRG and BH, the blinds, both call, and so does Harold. The flop comes something like 4, 9, A, rainbow. Basically a pretty great flop for a set of aces. They all check to me and like an idiot I bet $75. Fold, fold, fold. What the hell was I thinking?? Maybe I thought PRG was going to take me on or something, or Harold would call, but I guess the blood just rushed to my head. Not one of my greater plays...
About a round later in pretty much the same late position I find AK suited(hearts). I raise, making it 15 to play, and PRG calls and raises another 40. I think about re-raising, thinking i've probably got the best hand, but decide that I don't want to go broke on A high, so I just call. The flop comes Q x x, two hearts. Not too bad. PRG now bets 75. Hmmm...I don't think he's got a super-strong hand, so I decide to play mine aggressively(after all, I have got 15 outs) and call 75 and raise the pot, 270. He gives it the dwell and then decides to put me all-in, about 250 more. I call, and somebody says, "on their backs", to which I reply, "It's not a tournament", but PRG turned his hand over to show AQ. So I was kind of right, he wasn't holding a monster, but I was down to 12 outs. OOPs, make that 9 ‘cos another Q just fell on the turn. I'm funking for a heart, c'mon baby, but of course it's some useless rag club on the river(it's always a club, ain't it?). Oh well, back to the drawing board, so I pull up a grand.
After about half an hour Rock2, on my immiediate right, made a nice play. He had become fairly short-stacked calling a couple of raises to see flops and then having to fold when he hadn't hit. He got up and left. Sure, it was a good game, but he wasn't hitting cards, so why sit around going on tilt? there's always another game and another day. I wish I could cut my losses and just walk away like this more often.
In his place another local sat down. This guy had been watching the game almost from the beginning and was obviously some sort of "pro". He sat with $1000. Very first hand he gets, he raises. I fold, but a couple of others call, including Harold. Flop is something like x 9 10. Harold checks and the pro bets the pot(about 60). Other player folds and Harold calls. Turn is an 8. Harold checks and the pro bets 180. Harold now check-raises all-in about 700 in total. The pro now thinks for awhile and finally calls. Harold, of course, has JQ for the nuts and the pro disgustedly flicks KK in the muck( did you guess the hands right?). Like I said, this pro had been watching the game, and also seemed to know Harold, who, as I had also observed, was not that good a player. How this pro could call a check-raise from a not very sophisticated player I'll never know. Yes, yes I know it's all much easier when you're not in the hand, but you gotta think you're beat when the board is showing a straight and many 2-pair type possibilities(by that, I mean Harold could easily have played 9 10, 8 9, even 10 8 suited as his starting hands) and all you got is one pair, don't ya? The pro later turned round to some railbird and whispered something about "anyone else and I fold, but against him....", so he may well have had good reason to call, I could be judging him a little harshly.
Harold's weak style of play was demonstrated a few hands later when BH in seat 3 bet the pot when a card to make broadway hit the turn(having called a bet on the flop), and Harold, unable to resist with 2 pairs, called. The river was a blank and BH made a large bet again to which Harold made a losing call(BH had the nuts). The point being, I'm pretty sure BH would have folded to a bet if the board had paired.
I then found myself in early position with AJ off and limped in. About 4 or 5 of us saw the flop which consisted of Q K 10, two diamonds. Ok, I got the straight, but I don't like them diamonds.
Harold checks and JG bets, I call and raise the pot. Harold smooth calls...ok, he must have diamonds, and JG thinks a little bit and folds. Turn is an offsuit Jack, Harold checks and I bet the pot. He now check-raises me! Great, he's not only just made the top straight as well, but he's freerolling with the flush draw against me. Marvellous. I call and pray for a blank, which it is. Phew. Turns out Harold only had the bare ace of diamonds and while we chop the pot up he talks about having a draw to the royal flush(....?).
Next hand I decide to play is the 7 5 of spades in mid-position. I raise, for the sake of varying my play and hope I hit some kind of mystery(on the whole I'm a fairly tight player, and many in London think of me as absolute granite, but I like to mix it up a little-otherwise you never get paid off when you hit your flop, which has been a problem for me in the past). Several players call. Flop comes...all spades(sorry, can't remember the ranks). I bet the pot and Spiro, to my immiediate left, thinks for a bit and flat calls. Uh-oh, I've found him a tricky player to read, and my perception of him is that he knows what he's doing-is he setting a trap for me and slowplaying the nut flush? It's head's up now and 4th street is a blank. Hmmm, what to do? I can't give him a free card, but what if I'm betting into a monster? I decide to check and see what he does, and then make a decision whether I want to continue with the hand. To my delight Spiro also checks. The river card is a blank, and I decide I'm winning and make a questionable value bet of about 150(prob about 3/4 of the pot). I think I decided he had trips and maybe would call, and if he had the nuts he'd let me know, and I could fold, having murdered $150 in cold blood. He pondered awhile and then folded. As the dealer shuffled for the next hand Spiro told me he had the ace of spades. I don't know whether that was true or not, but if a fourth spade had hit the flop, my cards would have gone straight into the muck(I'm about 95% sure about that).
I guess around two hours had gone by now and new players were entering the game. PRG was actually losing quite a fair amount and had moved to seat 9(my immiediate right) and a new young guy(NYG) had taken his place. NYG raises in 1st position and gets several callers including me with AJ. Flop comes A 3 7, two diamonds, He bets the pot and everyone folds round to me. I think about raising, but I'm worried that I could be outkicked, so I just call(yeah, yeah, I know, if I'm worried I'm beat, why don't I just fold?). Turn card is a Jack-hooray, I got As up-but it's also a diamond. NYG bets the pot, but I don't think he's got a flush, so I flat call, hoping he'll just check it out on the end. The last card is a blank and he checks nervously, so I just turn my 2 pair over, hoping they're good. He turns over two black 3s to go with the one on the flop. Great. So if I had gone with my read on the turn and raised the pot, he may well have folded. My conservative play was not only due to lack of spleen, but also due to the fact that I had never played with this guy before-for all I knew, he had bet on the come, or maybe AK with the K of diamonds. Anyway, I never put him on bottom set. I also lost another pot to this guy, but I can't remember the details of that at all. Basically, I had been slowly crawling my way out of a hole, but since his arrival at the table, I was right back in it.
All was not lost however, because a little later on, I found a pair of 8s in mid to late position. I raise(hell, I didn't come all the way to Foxwoods to limp in!) and my man, NYG calls from out of the blinds. Flop is all undercards with a flush draw (yikes! there might have been a straight there, I can't remember), NYG checks, I bet the pot. He thinks and calls. Turn card is a blank, he checks so I bet the pot again. Now he thinks awhile longer, and then calls. Looks like he
could be on the flush draw, who knows, I fancy I'm winning at the moment. Last card is, aaargh, the flushing card. NYG dwells and dwells. He's thinking of bluffing it, I'm sure, oh wow, I'm gonna have to call a fair sized bet with a lousy pair of 8s, why the hell did I raise it and keep betting like I actually had something good? Knowing my luck he's got trips again....he finally checks, thank God, and I turn my 8s over while he turns over A5off(the 5 matching one on the
flop). Phew, I won a pot.
Another interesting coup occurred when I raised in late position with some rubbish(I can't remember, but it doesn't really matter) and found seat 4, the local who was a complete rock(remember?) and the PRG calling. The flop featured two clubs. They both checked to me, so I thought I'll bet out and take the pot right here. They both called-hmmm, have I got a plan B? I was especially concerned when the Rock called because I had barely seen this fella play a hand; he really was super-duper tight. Anyway the next card comes and it's a club, and that's it, I'm through with this pot. They both check to me, and I look at the Rock and he's just dying for me to bet, it's so obvious it's a joke. Like I said I had given up on this pot so I just checked along. River is nothing special and now the Rock bets 200-I knew he had the nut flush! PRG calls and I fold with the satisfaction of seeing my brilliant read. Rock now turns over a pair of 10s(huh?)
while PRG is the one with the nut flush. So much for my understanding of that situation.
The game had been going on for a while now when up came perhaps the most interesting pot of the night(unfortunately, I was not involved). A little background on the three participants first.
Loudmouth, in seat 5, had for sometime now, been raising before the flop and taking pots down without his cards being seen. Indeed, he was playing well and winning quite a bit(probably had about 3 grand in front of him). PRG, like I said above, was losing quite a lot, maybe stuck about 1000 or so, maybe less. NYG(remember him? he did me with the trip 3s) had started with 300 and, in the space of about an hour, had built it up to about 1500. Anyway, Loudmouth raises UTG, PRG calls, and NYG now re-raises the pot. Loudmouth now raises again and PRG calls while muttering something like, "time to gamble", and NYG calls. I'm pretty sure that's how the pre-flop betting went, but basically they all put-in about 180 each before the flop. I definitely remember the pot was 560, because that was how much loudmouth bet, when he saw J 7 9 in the middle of the table. I know he bet the pot because his favourite expression was, "I'll bet the pot!", being one of those players who always bet the max. Now, the PRG hesitated a little and then said, "make it two thousand", while counting out twenty 100 dollar bills. Now the look on the NYG's face was priceless, the blood literally drained from this kid's face, I'm pretty sure I even heard him say,"oh shit". Whatever the case, he looked pretty freaked out and it dawned on me he had pretty good hand, but maybe not good enough. By now, there was a pretty large crowd gathered around the table watching the action(btw, quite a few times there were many players from other games coming over to watch. This was a good game and there were several big bets and pots generated during the evening. Whilst not being a super-huge game, I think many of the players watching were 10/20 and 15/30 types, and they could imagine themselves in this game. I noticed this same phenomenon at the Bellagio in Vegas once, when some english friends and I set up a plh game, with exactly the same blinds. At the table next to us was Doyle Brunson, Jennifer Harmon, Annie Duke etc playing HUGE, maybe 3000/6000, but everyone in the room was far more interested in our game. I was also bemused by the reluctance of these same players to get involved in our game-I'm sure many a time they've found themselves stuck 500, or even 1k, in a 10/20 or 15/30 game, yet don't want play 400 in a plh game in case they blow it all in one hand.) So, NYG starts to think, and Loudmouth says,"c'mon kid, it's 2 grand to you" (I don't think he was feeling too grand). NYG looks a little peeved(and who can blame him?) and says, "yeah, I know", thinks for a while and folds. Now, it's back on Loudmouth and he goes into a 5 to 10 minute think, which as you all know, is a looong time in poker, before he too throws his hand in. What's interesting about this hand is that NYG later said he had Aces! Surely, he should have raised a third time pre-flop(he definitely had enough money in front of him to make calling difficult for the other two, and if Loudmouth had KKs he would have been in a whole world of trouble) and taken the pot down there and then? I reckon PRG's possible holdings were J 9, J 7(for 2 pr) or 10 8(for the straight). I think he would have laid down a small pocket pair for a large bet before the flop, and if he did have a set he would have slow-played it, but, then again, what the hell do I know? As for Loudmouth's hand, I can't even begin to guess. Like I said, he really had not shown down many hands(in fact, at one point, he folded UTG and accidentally exposed KJ off-this resulted in much ribbing; "what a rock!", "he's just showing off!" etc) and was one of the stronger players in the game.
Well, it got to around 3.30 in the morning and I decided to leave. Unfortunately I was stuck $800, but the game wasn't quite as good as it had been earlier(Harold had quit winners long ago, and PRG left not long after the pot described above) and I was tired. So, yes, I did my absolute bollocks(as we say in England), but it was, despite the result, a very enjoyable session. On a final note, the game went strong for at least 5 hours, with new players coming and going all the time, and looked like it was going to carry on a while longer, so all those fears cardroom managers have about pot limit breaking the live ones too quickly maybe a little exaggerated. Kudos to Foxwoods for spreading the game, and also love the non-smoking.
Fossilman’s reply
(My original text in italics)
As a longtime lurker of this ng i thought i'd post a trip report,
Thanks for de-lurking.
Onto the game;10-handed pot-limit hold'em, buy-in $100, blinds 5-5 off the button, $5 from each player every half hour(a reasonable rake?).... seat 2, a rather, ahem...how can i put this?, portly, rich guy(PRG), he clearly had pot-limit experience(and that doesn't necessarily mean he was a good player), which was good because he kept the game going and was most affable, and sat down with at least 10k, maybe more;
I'm not sure if I've been insulted or compliment. I guess portly is nicer than fat. ;-) That was me, Greg Raymer (FossilMan). And 10K is a bit more than I had, it was only about 5-6K.
seat 5, another local, who had kind of a loud voice(I don't mean this in a bad way, he seemed like a nice guy, I just can't think of another way to describe him, I'll call him Loudmouth);
That's Roby, also called Limit Man (you'll understand why later).
seat 6, a middle-aged guy called Harold, he was obviously not a very good player, and I suspect, one of the reasons the game was going
Not really. I was the one working hard to get the game going, and although I had been working on Harold, I didn't expect him to sit down.
seat 9, me;
Welcome to Foxwoods and Connecticut. Other than Spiro, I had tagged you as the only other capable pot-limit player in the bunch.
seat 10, another local, who I think was called Spiro(? hope I got that right).
Yes, you did. He's a great guy, very friendly, and does very well at NL HE tourneys.
On the whole the PRG told players what to do, as most of the dealers, with the exception of one or two, didn't really have a clue.
I am an attorney, and an ego-maniac, and suffer from "Table-Captain Syndrome".
I noticed right away that PRG was playing many hands, straddling and sticking little raises of $10 or $5 to build the pot up, and encouraging everyone to gambool and all that crap. He was obviously looking to gamble with a weird hand, maybe sending someone with aces or kings broke.
Damn, you saw right through me.
I won a small pot early on (can't remember anything about it at all) and then looked down to see...AA. Raise! I make it $25 to play. PRG and BH, the blinds, both call, and so does Harold. The flop comes something like 4, 9, A, rainbow. Basically a pretty great flop for a
set of aces. They all check to me and like an idiot I bet $75. Fold, fold, fold. What the hell was I thinking?? Maybe I thought PRG was going to take me on or something, or Harold would call, but I guess the blood just rushed to my head. Not one of my greater plays...
Unless I had flopped 2-pair or better, you weren't going to get any action out of me on that flop. ;-)
About a round later in pretty much the same late position I find AK suited(hearts). I raise, making it 15 to play, and PRG calls and raises another 40. I think about re-raising, thinking i've probably got the best hand, but decide that I don't want to go broke on A high, so I just call. The flop comes Q x x, two hearts. Not too bad. PRG now bets 75. Hmmm...I don't think he's got a super-strong hand, so I decide to play mine aggressively(after all, I have got 15 outs) and call 75 and raise the pot, 270. He gives it the dwell and then decides to put me all-in, about 250 more. I call, and somebody says, "on their backs", to which I reply, "It's not a tournament", but PRG turned his hand over to show AQ. So I was kind of right, he wasn't holding a monster, but I was down to 12 outs. OOPs, make that 9 'cos another Q just fell on the turn. I'm funking for a heart, c'mon baby, but of course it's some useless rag club on the river(it's always a club, ain't it?). Oh well, back to the drawing board, so I pull up a grand.
Thanks for the action. If you had reraised the pot preflop, I would've folded.
After about half an hour Rock2, on my immiediate right, made a nice play. He had become fairly short-stacked calling a couple of raises to see flops and then having to fold when he hadn't hit. He got up and left. Sure, it was a good game, but he wasn't hitting cards, so why sit around going on tilt? there's always another game and another day. I wish I could cut my losses and just walk away like this more often.
If you've got money and aren't on tilt, why walk away when the game is good?
In his place another local sat down. This guy had been watching the game almost from the beginning and was obviously some sort of "pro". He sat with $1000. Very first hand he gets, he raises. I fold, but a couple of others call, including Harold. Flop is something like x 9 10. Harold checks and the pro bets the pot(about 60). Other player folds and Harold calls. Turn is an 8. Harold checks and the pro bets 180. Harold now check-raises all-in about 700 in total. The pro now thinks for awhile and finally calls. Harold, of course, has JQ for the nuts and the pro disgustedly flicks KK in the muck( did you guess the hands right?). Like I said, this pro had been watching the game, and also seemed to know Harold, who, as I had also observed, was not that good a player. How this pro could call a check-raise from a not very sophisticated player I'll never know. Yes, yes I know it's all much easier when you're not in the hand, but you gotta think you're beat when the board is showing a straight and many 2-pair type
possibilities(by that, I mean Harold could easily have played 9 10, 8 9, even 10 8 suited as his starting hands) and all you got is one pair, don't ya? The pro later turned round to some railbird and whispered something about "anyone else and I fold, but against him....", so he may well have had good reason to call, I could be judging him a little harshly.
Harold has been known to slow-play and check-raise top pair with a medium kicker. It was correct to call him down here. Of course, no disrespect to you, as you don't know Harold like we know Harold.
Another interesting coup occurred when I raised in late position with some rubbish(I can't remember, but it doesn't really matter) and found seat 4, the local who was a complete rock(remember?) and the PRG calling. The flop featured two clubs. They both checked to me, so I thought I'll bet out and take the pot right here. They both called-hmmm, have I got a plan B? I was especially concerned when the Rock called because I had barely seen this fella play a hand; he really was super-duper tight. Anyway the next card comes and it's a club, and that's it, I'm through with this pot. They both check to me, and I look at the Rock and he's just dying for me to bet, it's so obvious it's a joke. Like I said I had given up on this pot so I just checked along. River is nothing special and now the Rock bets 200-I knew he had the nut flush! PRG calls and I fold with the satisfaction of seeing my brilliant read. Rock now turns over a pair of 10s(huh?) while PRG is the one with the nut flush. So much for my understanding of that situation.
Me too. I put you on a raise, which is why I flat-called. I completely misread some movement you made on the turn.
The game had been going on for a while now when up came perhaps the most interesting pot of the night(unfortunately, I was not involved). A little background on the three participants first. Loudmouth, in seat 5, had for sometime now, been raising before the flop and taking pots down without his cards being seen. Indeed, he was playing well and winning quite a bit(probably had about 3 grand in front of him). PRG, like I said above, was losing quite a lot, maybe stuck about 1000 or so, maybe less. NYG(remember him? he did me with the trip 3s) had started with 300 and, in the space of about an hour, had built it up to about 1500. Anyway, Loudmouth raises UTG, PRG calls, and NYG now re-raises the pot. Loudmouth now raises again and PRG calls while muttering something like, "time to gamble", and NYG calls. I'm pretty sure that's how the pre-flop betting went, but basically they all put-in about 180 each before the flop. I definitely remember the pot was 560, because that was how much loudmouth bet, when he saw J 7 9 in the middle of the table. I know he bet the pot because his favourite expression was, "I'll bet the pot!", being one of those players who always bet the max. Now, the PRG hesitated a little and then said, "make it two thousand", while counting out twenty 100 dollar bills. Now the look on the NYG's face was priceless, the blood literally drained from this kid's face, I'm pretty sure I even heard him say,"oh shit".
Whatever the case, he looked pretty freaked out and it dawned on me he had pretty good hand, but maybe not good enough. By now, there was a pretty large crowd gathered around the table watching the action(btw, quite a few times there were many players from other games coming over to watch. This was a good game and there were several big bets and pots generated during the evening. Whilst not being a super-huge game, I think many of the players watching were 10/20 and 15/30 types, and they could imagine themselves in this game. I noticed this same phenomenon at the Bellagio in Vegas once, when some english friends and I set up a plh game, with exactly the same blinds. At the table next to us was Doyle Brunson, Jennifer Harmon, Annie Duke etc playing HUGE, maybe 3000/6000, but everyone in the room was far more interested in our game. I was also bemused by the reluctance of these same players to get involved in our game-I'm sure many a time they've found themselves stuck 500, or even 1k, in a 10/20 or 15/30 game, yet don't want play 400 in a plh game in case they blow it all in one hand.) So, NYG starts to think, and Loudmouth says,"c'mon kid, it's 2 grand to you" (I don't think he was feeling too grand). NYG looks a little peeved(and who can blame him?) and says, "yeah, I know", thinks for a while and folds. Now, it's back on Loudmouth and he goes into a 5 to 10 minute think, which as you all know, is a looong time in poker, before he too throws his hand in. What's interesting about this hand is that NYG later said he had Aces! Surely, he should have raised a third time pre-flop(he definitely had enough money in front of him to make calling difficult for the other two, and if Loudmouth had KKs he would have been in a whole world of trouble) and taken the pot down there and then? I reckon PRG's possible holdings were J 9, J 7(for 2 pr) or 10 8(for the straight). I think he would have laid down a small pocket pair for a large bet before the flop, and if he did have a set he would have slow-played it, but, then again, what the hell do I know? As for Loudmouth's hand, I can't even begin to guess.
For the whole story on this hand, go to twoplustwo.com. In the PL/NL forum, you'll see two posts by me. In the first one, I tell about the hand and my thinking. In the second one, I tell the post-mortem from a week later, as I saw both of the others that night and we all shared our hands with each other. The posts are titled "Interesting Reason to Semi-Bluff" and "Follow-up: Interesting Reason to Semi-Bluff", or something very similar. Let's just say I was in third place after that flop, knew it, and still won. ;-) It really was a pleasure to play with you. I liked your game, and know that in the long run, you'd make a clear profit against the line-up that night.
As long as I didn't crack your AK too often. ;-)
Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
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Hugo Martin writes for Poker Verdict, a free service catering for the online poker community. It offers a unique and powerful tournament search tool as well as news and views from online poker experts. The site is owned by Easyodds, a free service that compares odds from over 20 big name online betting companies (Ladbrokes, Betfair etc) to allow users to find the best price for any bet.
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